The Kay Bass and Cello Registry

A bass labeled Regal just came up on Ebay, with the seller's speculation that it might have been made by Kay for Regal. This is a natural thought given the common idea that Kay built guitars for Regal (though I've seen no evidence of that) and the look of this bass. Here's what I see.

First, a look inside shows a kerfed liner, a common tell for Kay construction. But this liner is rectangular in cross-section where Kay used triangular liners. There's also no Kay build number, which appears in nearly all Kay bass builds up into the '60s.

Next I look at the body shape. There are clearly subtle differences from the standard Kay gamba mold, with wider shoulders flatter C bouts, more like an east European build. Unlike a Kay it has no outer lining.

Then I come to the neck, which given the shaper work and scroll-tail shape is pretty clearly by Englehardt, and that offers no help in identifying the maker. Apparently the seller doesn't know it's a replacement.

So to my eye there's no way this came from the Kay factory. I would very much like to know which it did come from, however, and when.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/296015180241

Mismatched Numbers

Kyle Perkins asks:
Here’s pics of my recent S-6. It sounds incredible. The label reads 1658 but the penciled in # below the label reads 1686. Can you explain the different serial numbers?

Here’s my supposition, not based on any documentation, but it makes the most sense to me and I expect it’s pretty close to reality.

When a build order came down, the shop personnel would pull parts for the instrument from stock and mark the back with what I call the build number, referencing that order. After assembly and major finishing the inspector would apply the ID label with the serial number. These numbers are usually the same, but for various reasons a given instrument might move through the process more quickly or slowly than expected, and the numbers may not match in the end. This doesn’t show up often, but it happens, more often in the early days, when shop procedures were still developing. As an example, in the span of 1459-1659 we currently have 17 basses with enough documentation to show that four have mismatched numbers, a relatively high ratio.

The build numbers disappear at about #46800, in mid-1963, coinciding with a switch from handwriting to a rubber stamp for serial numbers.

Registry Update

New registrations in October: 30
Registration updates: 21
Total registrations: 8316
Average prices in October:
C-1 $2306
M-1 2725
M-1B 2916
S-9 3350
H-10/M-3 910

My friend Bernd Eltze in Essen, Germany, an early rock'n'roll player, aficionado and collector, picked up this S-8 Swing Master from the son of Russ Smith, bassist with Ron and His Rattletones out of western Connecticut in the late '50s and early '60s.

Available 1938-'54, the Supreme-series S-8 is the non-blonde sibling of the S-9, and together they represented the top of the Kay bass line for the postwar period, inheriting the Swing Master nickname from the S-5/S-6. This one comes with a great story.

Based at the famed Crystal Lake Ballroom in Ellington CT, The Rattletones was the first band Gene Pitney appeared onstage with, and was Chuck Berry's first choice for backup on New England dates during his peak years. The band recorded two singles on the Glo label and backed up many touring performers, including Don Gibson, Bobby Darin, Dion and the Belmonts, Bo Diddley, Neil Sedaka and Frankie Avalon.

Smith held the chair in this band throughout, and the bass still carries fingerboard decals spelling out RUSS. Built in 1953, it remains in exceptional condition. To me it speaks eloquently of the thousands of hard-working musicians few remember who built American popular music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZXh4KpftDI

New Registry member Dylan Sapp in Georgia received this cello from his aunt, who'd found it set out on the street with trash, and he's interested in restoring it. At first glance it doesn't look like much, but it's a score for the research, a 140. I've classed in the Supreme series, but that's tentative for now, and I'll explain why.

Kay's 1947 model-line revamp updated the cello lines and brought in a new designation system, holding over only the trusty 55 group (Student series) and adding the 110 (Orchestra), 120 (Concert) and 130 (Maestro) groups. In 2017 we found the first 140 survivor, with high-end details. As far as I know this model was never catalogued, and I speculate that it was meant to replace the prewar 165, which is similarly rare. Five years on, the second one has appeared, confirming its production-model status and features, including ebony appointments and edge purfling, as well as extending its production span from 1948 into '49. The finish here is quite dark, possibly from exposure, but the '48 survivor carries the same lacquer contrast pattern as the 165.

What's difficult about this model is that excepting its contrast pattern it seems to be the same as the 130 in its details. Why make two different models the same way at the same time?

I have this question about the earlier 75 group, too, which differs from the 60 only in its price. The early cellos got their model designations from their target retail prices, so the 75 was priced 25% higher than the 60, and it's difficult to imagine how a salesperson could justify this degree of price differential — close to $500 in today's money — for what was essentially the same instrument. The 75 group was discontinued by 1941 while the 60 went on for another seven years. Why would Kay choose to repeat that mistake amid what was clearly a reform initiative? Was it just cockeyed optimism about the postwar return to the kind of economic prosperity not seen since the '20s? I'll have to put a pin in that pending more data. Let's hope I'll see another one before 2027.

140: '48-'49 (so far), 4/4 only, likely fewer than 50 built

September marked six months of steady growth in Registry traffic, more or less doubling since the lull in April. About half the September registrations and updates are sale-related. Prices seem to be ticking slowly upward, though still well behind average inflation.

New registrations in September: 29
Registration updates: 24
Total registrations: 8287

Average prices in September:
C-1 $2536
M-1 2440
M-1B 3282
S-9 4733
H-10/M-3 844

Bass of the Month

Our friend .Perkins.388 in Kentucky found this rare bird for sale in Maryland and will be offering it for sale. This otherwise standard-spec M-1 from 1950, from the family of the original owner, carries the distinctive difference of its Silvertone tailpiece badge, the first I've seen.

Kay started supplying instruments to Sears before it was called Kay, and by 1940 its basses were appearing in America's biggest catalog too, remaining on offer till Sears abandoned the strings market in '59.

Kay's OEM business volume varied somewhat through the years, but it was a major component till the distributor and consumer catalogs began to ebb in the late '50s. Those OEM customers with their own brands typically preferred that the instruments come with no Kay badging or identifying labels, and we see that with this example as well. If you've heard the rumor that Kay inspectors simply neglected to put ID labels into a lot of basses, I can say conclusively that it's just not true.

The badge itself is plastic and glued to the tailpiece, unlike the metal Kay badges that are pinned into the wood. We can see in the photos why so few of these have survived.

Thanks Kyle for the tip!

Cello of the Month

An unusually large group of cellos and 1/4 basses joined the Registry this month, among them this relatively rare 100, marketed as the Artist.

Offered only in 1938 and '39, the 100 and 100B were the only Maestro-series cellos for the prewar period, pitched below the Supreme-series 201 and 165, with some appointments from the Supreme series (ebony fingerboard, edge purfling) and one detail from the O-100, the rear center stripe. 4/4 only, about 325 made, including about 50 blondes.

The model designations of prewar cellos were set by their introduced retail prices in '37 or '38, a practice that extended to the bass side only with the 89.

Registry update for September 2, 2022
New registrations in August: 24
Registration updates: 24
Total registrations: 8260
Average prices in August:
C-1 $2340
M-1 2673
M-1B 2694
S-9 4048
H-10/M-3 1087

This month it appears that demand is picking up, with several instruments sold after sitting for up to a couple of years, and newly selling lower-priced instruments going quickly. It's not yet 2019 again, but we're getting there steadily.

Someone who's new to Kay basses asks, "Can you tell the difference between M1 and C1 basses and why it’s important?"

Kay produced and marketed its basses and cellos using a tiered system to differentiate its products for graduated price points. This began with five tiers before the war and evolved to three in the postwar period. Each tier series contained further variation. The three postwar series, low to high, are Concert, Maestro and Supreme, and from those labels we get the model-designation prefixes C, M and S.

Available from the very beginning of Kay bass and cello production in 1937 through the company's liquidation in '69, the C-1 was Kay's most popular model overall, characterized by its gamba corners, lacquer finish pattern, standard edge pinstriping, black Kluson tuning sets and rosewood fingerboard and appointments. The one in the first photo below is from 1951.

The M-1 was Kay's flagship model from the beginning of bass and cello production in 1937 through the company's liquidation in '69. Characterized by its violin corners, brass- or nickel-finished Kluson tuning sets and rosewood fingerboard and appointments, it was the secondmost-popular model after the less expensive C-1. The second photo shows one from 1949.

The construction methods are essentially the same for these basses, with key differences in wood grades, finish and appointments. For the player the most important difference is the body shape, specifically the corners, which are used to handle the instrument and can intersect with the player's body. Cost is the second factor; the M-1 was more expensive to build and cost more to buy when new, and typically attracts a few hundred dollars more on the market.

Images by Upton Bass (uptonbass.com).

Bass of the Month

Top contributor Perkins of Kentucky spotted this month's feature at American Music Center in Des Moines IA. The O-127 is a luxury variant of the O-100, built for Selmer USA under the Selmer-Kay marque in 1940 and '41.

The partnership with Selmer produced several models, most of them with extra bling and all sold in low to very low numbers. The O-127s were the last, with likely under 100 produced, only around 30 of them blonde like this one.

Special features of the O-127B are top-grade outer veneers with added graining, fabulous custom tuning plates engraved with the Selmer-Kay legend, edge purfling and rare f-hole binding, a technique Kay employed before settling on f-hole purfling for the Supreme series. It also features Kay's swankiest tailpiece badge, and this example sports the rear center stripe showing its O-100 connection.

The neck joint repair here is unusually engineered and could pose some challenges for the restorer, but the instrument otherwise appears to be in good shape. The shop says it comes with its original bow, and the previous owner acquired it in the '70s.

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/products/1940-kay-bass-rare-blonde-orchestra-model/5322936897786126

Update Sept 2: looks like it sold already!

facebook.com

Website progress

Construction of the new Kaybass.com (aka Kaybass.us) is underway, and I'm hoping the first phase will be completed in the next few weeks. The developer is a fellow bassist who learned on a Kay bass owned by his father, Registry member since 2004. I'm very gratified I was able to find someone within the Kay bass community to help with this work.

Look forward to another announcement on this soon.

Registry update for August 1, 2022

New registrations in July: 25
Registration updates: 18
Total registrations: 8234
Average prices in July:
C-1 $1875
M-1 2504
M-1B 3524
S-9 4225
H-10/M-3 950

I've seen a detail about Kay bass construction on a couple of basses that I would like to confirm and, if I can, discover the extent of this practice across the production years.

Supreme-series basses, and some other models in the early days, have what we've called a carved scroll. What I've found is that for at least some of these, the scroll volute is separate and applied, as on most Kay basses, but the transition was finished out to appear as a single piece, fully carved. Please see the attached photos, in which you can see the seam between the pegbox and scroll volute. It may be that this was always the standard practice, and I'm now just starting to see it.

I would appreciate it if you could take a good look at the scroll of your Supreme-series bass and see whether you can detect this seam. If you can, or if you can determine conclusively that it is all one piece, I'd much appreciate your taking some close-up, detailed photos of the seam area to confirm the finding, and respond to me at [email protected] with your serial number and photos.

Thank you again for your participation in the Registry, and feel free to contact me with any question about your instrument.

Update, Sept 1: After polling members with prewar Maestro and Supreme models and receiving an encouraging number of replies, I can say it appears that the pieced, carved-in scroll was Kay's standard practice from the beginning. It would not surprise me to find that this was the standard practice among the other US plywood makers of the day as well. Thanks again!

The Kay Bass and Cello Registry updated their info in the about section.

Kay and Engelhardt Basses: Basic Model Features

Information supplied with help from Kyle Perkins

In 1937 Kay established a five-tier product system for its basses and cellos, and Engelhardt-Link continued most of Kay's ‘69 model designations with some spec changes through 2019. Here’s a spotter’s guide.

Series ranked by price, low to high. Note that Kay specifications sometimes change or vary from standard. Engelhardt finish treatments also varied over the years without changes in model designation.

Student Series

89: Utility model sold under various brands, including Selmer USA, Gretsch and Silvertone. Gamba, unique asymmetrical lacquer pattern on maple top veneer, ebonized maple fingerboard, standard pinstriping, black tuning plates; usually carries no ID label; 1937-'43

4506: Built for Selmer USA as the Manhattan, same specs as 89; '39-40, rare

Orchestra Series

O: Gamba, X pattern with faux graining, spruce top, ebonized maple or rosewood fingerboard, pinstriped, hatpegs or nickel tuning plates; frequently sold OEM, '37-42

O-1: Same as O with burst contrast pattern; '48 only

O-100: Same as O with rosewood fingerboard and rear center stripe; blonde option; '37-43

O-127: Built for Selmer USA under Selmer-Kay label; gamba, X pattern, select spruce, rosewood fingerboard, edge purfling, bound f-holes, carved scroll, fancy hardware; blonde option; '40-41, very rare

S-100: Slimline 6-inch ribs, gamba, X pattern, spruce top, rosewood fingerboard, pinstriping, nickel tuning plates, blonde option; '38-43, rare

Concert Series

C, C-1: Most popular model; gamba, X pattern, spruce or maple top, rosewood or maple fingerboard, pinstriping, black tuning plates; very early labeled only Concert, with rare blonde option; '37-69. Continued as EC1 and, later, EC1B (rare blonde).

C-4: Gamba, select spruce, blonde, carved scroll, rosewood fingerboard, often edge purfling, nickel tuning plates; '37-39, rare.

CM: Concert Master; gamba, select spruce, X pattern, 3-piece neck, carved scroll, edge purfling, rosewood or ebony fingerboard, brass Czech tuning plates; '37 only, vanishingly rare.

In 2007 Engelhardt added EG1 (red) and EG9 (blonde) as ebony-equipped gambas.

Maestro Series

M, M-1: Secondmost-popular model; violin corners, spruce top, + or ^ pattern, rosewood fingerboard, brass tuning plates, pinstriping; '37-69. Continued as EM1.

M-1B: Thirdmost popular model; same as M-1 but blonde; '39-68. Continued as EM1-B

M-1AH: Original flagship model named for company designer Alvin Hawes; viol, select woods, various patterns, ebony or rosewood fingerboard, 3-piece neck, carved scroll, edge purfling, fancy tuning plates; '37-38, rare

M-1W: Same as M-1 but often with lower-grade woods for discount price; '37-51

M-2: Military model; Same as M-1 often with edge purfling; 37-39, rare

H-10/M-3: Same as M-1 at 1/4-scale, black tuning plates; H-10 '47-55, M-3 '56-69. Continued as EM3.

M-4: Same as M-1AH, but blonde; '37-38, rare

M-5: Same as M-1 but 5-string setup, widened fingerboard, side markers at every position, blonde option; '45-54, rare

M-6: Selmer-Kay, same as M-1AH plus f-hole binding, heel cap, custom fancy tuning plates; '37 only, vanishingly rare

M-7: Same as M-1 with select blonde top and sunburst back and ribs; '37 only, vanishingly rare

TV-1, TV-21: Painted finishes for early TV lighting; same as M-1 but with heavy matte gold (TV-1) or cream V over copper base (TV-21) paint finish, no edge stripes; '53 only, very rare

B-5: Jazz Cello, tuned in fourths as bass; widened ebony fingerboard, pinstriping, black bass-style tuners standard; '65-67, very rare

Supreme Series

S-1: Violin corners, select woods, dark ^ pattern, ebony fingerboard, carved scroll, edge and f-hole purfling, heel cap, nickel tuning plates; '54-69. Continued as ES1 with spec changes.

S-8: Swing Master; violin corners, select woods, ^ or + pattern, ebony fingerboard, carved scroll, edge and f-hole purfling, heel cap, nickel tuning plates; '39-54

S-9: Swing Master; same as S-8 but blonde; '39-68. Continued as ES9 with spec changes.

S-51: Same as S-8 with five-string setup, widened fingerboard, blonde option; '39-61

S-10: Same as S-9 at 1/4 scale; '48-54, very rare

S-3: Same as S-1 at 1/4 scale; '55-67, very rare

S-5/S-6: Original Swing Master; violin corners, select woods, Slimline 6-inch ribs, blonde (S-5) or violin finish (S-6), ebony fingerboard, heel cap, 3-piece neck, carved scroll, edge purfling, f-hole binding, fancy custom tuning plates; '37-38, very rare

S-7: Same as S-5 with full-depth ribs; '37-38, very rare

S-10SK: for Selmer-Kay; same as S-5 with custom fancy tuning plates; '37 only, very rare

Use this interactive map to find Kay basses near you. Register your bass and send me a link to your sale or auction ad, and I'll add you to the map.
https://bit.ly/3yNR4Ee

Kay Basses for Sale - Google My Maps Kay Basses for Sale

Gordy's Music in Ferndale MI is offering this rare Kraftsman B-385, #12719, the only one of its kind we've been able to document in photos.

Kay offered the B series between 1940 and '47, drawing together its most popular models into an abbreviated catalog that could be marketed as a group to discounters. The Kraftsman brand was Kay's second-tier retail marque, not to be confused with Old Kraftsman, Spiegel's brand for its Kay-built instruments.

The series included the 180 (aka C-1), 200 (O-100), 220 (M-1), 300 (S-9) and 385 (S-51), the designations reflecting their respective retail prices, which were marginally lower than the Genuine Kay models.

This instrument is from 1945, the youngest of the few 385s we've been able to uncover. I estimate total production of this model at around 25, and so far they're only showing up in '44 and '45.

As you can see in the photos, the B-385 is a stock S-51 with a different ID label and no tailpiece badge or scroll-tail logo. There are no other spec differences between B-series instruments and their mainline versions. It has the standard Supreme trim details of ebony fingerboard, edge and f-hole purfling, carved scroll, higher-grade body woods and ebony 'horseshoe' heel cap.

This example has been converted for four-string setup and the D-string tuning machine deleted, unfortunate because these Kluson machine sets are very hard to source and repair.

The sale ad references the S-51's endorsement by bassist and bandleader Chubby Jackson, who in 1942 convinced Hank Kuhrmeyer to switch his five-string setups from a low E string to a high C. Jackson also had design input on the less expensive M-5, which debuted in 1945.

This instrument is currently available via Reverb.com.
https://reverb.com/item/56077634-kay-kraftsman-3-4-upright-bass-1953-b-385-chubby-jackson-model-w-bag-stand-pickup-se-michigan

Registry update for July 1, 2022
New registrations in June: 22
Registration updates: 14
Total registrations: 8211
Average prices in June:
C-1 $2090
M-1 2270
M-1B 4225
S-9 4225
H-10/M-3 1149

Bass of the Month

Update: Price is dropping already, seller is motivated.

Just appearing on the market is this exceptionally preserved M-3, #54465 from '66. The seller says it's been in storage for over 20 years, in its original bag, and it can't have been played much at all in the previous 35. Setup in '91, and reasonably priced for its condition.
https://reverb.com/item/55856962-1-4-scale-kay-m3-upright-bass-with-bag-and-stand

Registry update for June 3, 2022
New registrations in May: 19
Registration updates: 14
Total registrations: 8191
Average prices in May:
C-1 $2082
M-1 2541
M-1B 4060
S-9 3133
H-10/M-3 750

I want to let you know that after some careful observation over time I'm making a couple of adjustments in the serial-number date list, to smooth out what I've concluded are statistically implausible distortions in the numbers for '56-'58. This is the period just after founder Henry Kuhrmeyer retired, and the production mix was changing as a result under new president Sidney Katz. '57 and '58 were also recession years, reducing sales across the board and consequently the statistical probability of instruments turning up.

Roger built the list on clues from owner stories, and generally the numbers have held up well as new clues have trickled in. In this particular period we have no clear clues, so he had to apply more windage than usual, and the numbers have changed a couple of times. These changes affect dating on 149 currently registered instruments, and I'll be contacting the owners directly where practical.

Starting numbers for the production year
Yr old new
'56 38000 no change
'57 39700 39000
'58 40200 39900
'59 41000 no change

Registry update for May 3, 2022
New registrations in April: 13
Registration updates: 12
Total registrations: 8172
Average prices in April:
C-1 $2128
M-1 2375
M-1B 3883
S-9 3349
H-10/M-3 870

Bass of the Month

Near the end of April this very nice '51 S-51B showed up on Craigslist in southern Indiana. It has a few scuffs and a small punch on a lower rib, but it's otherwise in remarkable shape and original configuration. As a bonus for us old-gear geeks, it has a working Ampeg pickup system!

The S-51 and S-51B, frequently called the Chubby Jackson models for their endorsement by the bassist and bandleader, were Kay's most expensive instruments, introduced in 1939. I estimate production of about 1,350 S-51s and 300 S-51Bs before they were discontinued in '61.

The Ampeg system was available as a factory option on Kay basses from the very beginning of production in '37, first appearing in the database on #157. It's actually two microphones, one standing on top of the endpin tube inside and the other tensioned between the bridge top, with a special cable connector on the adjustable pin.

This bass is currently for sale at https://louisville.craigslist.org/msg/d/louisville-1951-kay-standup-double-bass/7477322748.html

Now it's easier to send The Kay Bass and Cello Registry a message.

Vanishingly rare bird!

Among several Kay cellos in a recent auction of school instruments in Rochester NY I spotted this one, missing its neck and tailpiece but otherwise in pretty good shape. It's a rare example of a 201, an uncatalogued 4/4-scale cello produced in small numbers (maybe 125, we now have five in the database) only in 1938 and '39. It holds the distinction of being the only carved-top bass or cello made by Kay. What I didn't know before it arrived is that it has a carved maple back as well!

In the very early days the company produced many small-lot variations like this that it did not put in its marketing materials, and I can only speculate on why. Was it to fulfill a specific customer or distributor order? Was it a market test that failed?

In any case I'll look forward to putting this rare bird back together to find out how it sounds.

Bass of the Month

This very nice O-100B from 1940 was purchased new in Frederick Maryland and used by an unnamed country-music artist on local station WFMD. Since 2019 it's been in Portland Oregon. This month I received an update from the owner with a photo of the original owner. We love the histories!

About 1,350 O-100s and 850 O-100Bs were produced under the Genuine Kay, K-Meyer and Gretsch labels from late 1937 into '44. Note the vertical center stripe on the back, distinctive to these models, as well as the early incised tuning plates.

Registry update for April 1 2022

New registrations in March: 25
Registration updates: 29
Total registrations: 8159

Average prices in March:
C-1 $2394
M-1 2219
M-1B 3500
S-9 3400
H-10/M-3 1037

In 2001 Roger received notice from Jay Rury Violins in Richardson TX of an unusual bass with a striking, professional two-tone lacquer treatment.

The Genuine Kay label identified it as an M-7, a previously unseen and uncatalogued designation. It was interesting to imagine Kay experimenting with this finish idea, though it was clear it never made it to regular production or sales. It is otherwise a stock M-1, and with no other example to compare, we could not confirm the lacquer as a factory treatment, so it sat in our archive as an open question for 20 years.

This past month a customer brought a bass in for repair to luthier Rob Riccardi in Sicklerville NJ (riccardisviolinshop.com/), and he immediately contacted me to ask about it because it has no Kay label. When his photos came in I was excited to find it matches our mystery bass, and I could finally confirm that M-7 specifies this fabulous two-tone treatment, blonde on top and deep, magenta-tinged O pattern on figured ribs and back.

The question remained about the purpose of this rare product. Since the two examples are well separated on either side of our 1937-38 bracket line, it was clearly not built in an experimental production batch, as we've seen with other rare models, making it an uncatalogued custom product. But why not market it? The tailpiece badge on Rob's find provides a juicy clue: an elaborate metal logo for SS Stewart that took me down a little historical rabbit trail.

Stewart is well known in banjo circles for quality instruments from the late 19th century. After the founder died the company declined and finally failed, and the branding was sold in 1915. It changed hands a couple of times and by the '30s it was controlled by distributors B&J, with branded products built mostly by Harmony and some by Kay. The Stewart logo here is the same one Harmony was using for its Stewart-branded guitars and banjos at the time.

This professional, one-off badge could not have been the fanciful work of an owner, it was done either by Harmony or Kay. There are very few scenarios I can imagine for how this came to be, and the most likely seems to be for a trade-show exhibit, maybe a live band, to promote Stewart-branded products in '38.

Derived from that, my hypothesis is that Kay made the M-7 only as an eye-catcher for occasional promotions when it was still working to get established in the very competitive Chicago music market. It was a creative time in the Kay shop, and I'll bet this one was fun to build!

I'm working on a major update for Kaybass.com, and have a temporary page up there (and Kaybass.us) for contacts concerning registrations and instrument maintenance, repairs, evaluations and restorations. Watch this space for news of the update and other fun stuff.